Mark Sylvester: John Davies has a method, an approach he systematically developed over a career spanning three decades. He's proven it to be invaluable for dozens of industries and thousands of projects facing public acceptance. Up until now, the method has only been available to his select client list. John is unpacking his insight and wealth of knowledge to overcome opposition and earn public support for the first time right here. Throughout these episodes, we'll take a deep dive, step by step, with John into his strategies to overcome opposition and create support. Nothing is free in this world, but good ideas are priceless. This show could be just the thing you've been looking for. I'm Mark Sylvester. Now, let's get started and talk with John. Welcome back to the show, everybody. John, this is our last show, but there's one last piece to the method that I want to talk about before we wrap it all up and make sure everybody gets kind of the high points, but we talked about motivating, educating, then activating. I wanted to save activation, so we kind of gave it its own time. What do you mean, "ask them for help"?

John Davies: Well, this is the one thing that people are afraid to do, and they're afraid to do it over and over and over, and you have to. When people have said to you, you've reached out to them, you've found out what they care about, you're able to position your project in their minds, you're able to form this relationship, cultivate it, they expect you to ask, and they want to know what's going on. They're partners with you now, and not all. I mean, 20, 30% of them will do something, but you have to ask them, and you got to take people who are supporters and transition them to become advocates. There's a big difference between someone who supports, that's a thumbs up on Facebook, and an advocate is someone who'll stand up and tell people why they're doing it.

Mark Sylvester: It feels like people are afraid to close. Right? They don't want to close the deal. It's like they don't want to ask for the sale, right, in a different situation.

John Davies: Right. Same thing.

Mark Sylvester: It's the same thing. Right?

John Davies: Why do you think that is? Why do people not want to ask for the sale?

Mark Sylvester: Well, you're the psychologist on the show.

John Davies: Well, I'm not a psychologist, but I think a lot of times we don't ask for the sale because we're afraid we're going to get a no, so why not just assume we're there and do the best we can? Knowing that we have a big group of people, if you don't do a big enough outreach and if you don't gather the right number of people to be with you, then it's going to be hard to get people to do something, because people are busy. In the world we live in today, it's hard to get people out to do something, and so you got to do it in a very careful manner.

John Davies: Our goal here is to have a dominant role in a hearing. We want to dominate ... We want to have numbers of people in the hearing. We want them to have a, we like to use little hand cut out badges and stickers and things that look more homemade, and so that says yes. I mean, just say yes. I mean, we don't have to get detailed. I'm not crazy about hats, and T-shirts, and all that stuff. I mean, it looks too manufactured, but whatever it takes, we want people to be out there saying yes.

Mark Sylvester: There's also this idea of ... I mean, you know there's going to be opponents there, so is there a ratio, if you're thinking about, of how many people you want to have in that hearing?

John Davies: Well, in the old days, we used to feel we had to have 10 to 1.

Mark Sylvester: 10-

John Davies: [crosstalk 00:03:59]-

Mark Sylvester: ... to 1.

John Davies: 20 years ago, 10 to 1. I always said 11 to 1, because Albert Einstein used to say all the time it took 11 positive statements to overcome a negative statement in someone's head, but what we've learned is, decision-makers sit in a room over and over, and they see opponents, opponents, opponents. Everyone's worried. Everyone's scared. Everyone's worried about everything, and so they expect people to come out opposed. They're shocked when people come out and support, so one to one is almost good enough now. I mean, the bar, our bar has been lowered to get people there, and thank God, because it's harder to get people there now.

Mark Sylvester: I'm going to guess that you've also got some strategies and some proven tactics on getting people there, because we've-

John Davies: You want-

Mark Sylvester: ... cultivate-

John Davies: You want me to tell them, do you?

Mark Sylvester: The listener is waiting for this, John.

John Davies: [crosstalk 00:04:52] I think I'll share with them, but I don't want you to listen.

Mark Sylvester: I'll turn off my mike.

John Davies: All right. Let's do that. Yeah, we want to create an urgency, but with enough time for people to have a date, and then get the date out, so we're not going to call the night before and say, "You got to be there." Yes, we have. Yes, we get people out. Yes, it's awful, and we burn them out. These are people that we've cultivated a relationship. We've had a couple meals with them. We've kept them up to date what's going on. They know where the project's going.

Mark Sylvester: They're friends.

John Davies: They're friends. We have a relationship. They've told their neighbors this is a great deal, that they're crazy to oppose it. "Do you really want the alternative to this, or do you really think this isn't going to happen someday? This is a great project. These are good people. You should meet them." Now, they're willing to go out and talk in the hearing for us. They're fired up. They know who we are, and they'll come if we ask them the right way. We either call them and say, "Hey, there's a hearing coming up in two weeks. Wanted to check in with you, see if we can get this on your calendar. Here's what it's about, and we know the opponents are going to be there in numbers. If you don't come, they're going to speak for you."

Mark Sylvester: Ooh. Ooh.

John Davies: That alone [crosstalk 00:06:10]-

Mark Sylvester: I was just going to say, there's the secret sauce right there.

John Davies: Yeah. Well, there's, and we call it a red meat meter. How loud do we have to turn the red meat up? Sometimes we have to say, "This is what they're saying. This is what their-"

Mark Sylvester: Remind them.

John Davies: " ... letter [crosstalk 00:06:26]. This is what, these are the accusations they've made," but today, and it's harder to get people to do things today on the positive side because of the discourse in the last five to 10 years. The discourse in this country has become so ugly that people don't want to get involved and don't want to be attacked.

Mark Sylvester: Again, this is, you've, because of that's the climate, you understand the climate, that's why you have to do all these other steps that we've been talking about.

John Davies: You just got to do it better than you used to have to do. You could do a little bit, but now you have to do a lot. One of our first really big projects, the project manager, a senior VP of Hyatt, we had a special study that the county made us do for this big hotel, an economic study. I think the goal was, "Is this the smallest possible hotel that could make money? Because we don't want to make too much money." It was one of the most ludicrous statements I had ever heard, and we said, "Sure." We had two months, and the project manager, he said, "What can I do to further this cause and your program, the program? Because I have nothing to do with planning, nothing to do ... " I mean, I'm frozen for two months while the study's going on. I said, "Well, we have like 5,000-plus supporters. Why don't you call them?"

Mark Sylvester: All of them?

John Davies: He said, "Okay." He had two months. He had eight weeks. How many days is that? 40 days. He called every one of them. He made it an attempt to call every one of them during the time period, and he probably talked to more than half.

Mark Sylvester: That made the difference.

John Davies: It made a huge different ... The last hearing, they closed a county building, the fire marshal came. People were lined up outside. It was unbelievable, but that's the relationship. We will call and say, "Hey, it's coming. Heads up," or we'll send a letter saying, "Hey, heads up," and then call. If we call and say, "It's coming. Where do you think, can you make it," and they say, "Yes," we seal that commitment. Again, commitment and consistency. "I'll be there." We send them a note, sometimes handwritten, saying-

Mark Sylvester: "See you tomorrow at 11:00," or whatever.

John Davies: "We'll see you in two weeks at 11:00." A few days before, we call again, or right again, and a lot of times the day of, if it's even hearing, we call again. The calls aren't, "You said ... " We call and say, "Hey, just want to give you a quick check in and let you know what's happening. Update. We're counting on you for dinner." That's the other thing is, before the hearing, we want to gather with people. We do it for multiple reasons. First is, more people are willing to show up if we get together before the hearing, so if you're going to go into a hearing room, and you don't bump into me, how do I know you showed up, so your commitment doesn't matter. Right? I mean, do you need to be there? No. It's like, "I want you to see my daughter's lacrosse game." I'm like, "Well, hey-"

Mark Sylvester: "Let's go have lunch first."

John Davies: Yeah. Let's, "Hey, Mark. You want to, you come to my daughter's lacrosse game on Friday afternoon?" You're like, "Oh, yeah, that would be great." Then where'd he go? "He won't notice. We're really busy. Yeah, we got plans tonight. I mean, who's going to notice? I mean, that lacrosse team's killing it. There's going to be four or five hundred people there. Is he really going to notice I'm not there? I'll send him a note tomorrow." But if I say, "Hey, Mark, before the lacrosse game, let's go get a bite. Let's go get a bite to eat and a glass of beer-"

Mark Sylvester: I'm totally going to do that.

John Davies: You can't no-show on me, and so that's part of the deal with the pre-hearing.

Mark Sylvester: Got it. Got it.

John Davies: Again, if we've fed them well at the other events, they're salivating.

Mark Sylvester: They already know.

John Davies: They go, "Oh, man."

Mark Sylvester: "Oh, my God. What's he bringing?"

John Davies: [crosstalk 00:10:20] the lacrosse games, before the lacrosse game, John does a great tailgating. It's like that's the deal, and what happens then is, for us, the people that say they're coming to the hearing but not the pre-hearing, we have a really big drop-off. I mean, even though they made a commitment to us. Those who say they're coming to the pre-hearing, we have a very small drop-off. I mean, it's just natural. You're not going to no-show, showing up to someone who's buying food for you and not going to be there.

Mark Sylvester: It feels like you've done so much work to get to this last step, and the goal of this whole thing is to get a positive outcome at the hearing, and so you dominate the hearing, and so all the research, all the communications, all the messaging, all the meetings, and drop the ball, and the very last thing, because you don't get them to show up.

John Davies: Right. Right, and it's both. It's both that, but it's also, during this time period, they don't show up. We're pushing them, because, I mean, everything has multiple hearings, so if they don't show up, we're not shaming them. We actually thank them.

Mark Sylvester: You thank-

John Davies: At the same time I'm calling you, I'm asking you to write a letter. "Hey, could you write a letter, an email, to the county, the city, let them know what you're thinking?" "Oh, yeah." "Oh, great. Would you like us to help you?" "Help, sure." "We know it takes a lot of time to write a letter. Why don't you give me some idea of what you'd want to say? Tell me a little bit how long you've lived there. Tell me a little bit of how you play in the community. Why do you think this is a good idea," so our caller takes the notes, immediately is popped over to a writer. The writer does it. An hour later, that person's sitting home, gets a draft, and they can send a draftee ... They can send the email out, cut and paste, or if we do a letter for them, we drop it in the mail to them, and they can-

Mark Sylvester: Wow.

John Davies: ... send their letter out.

Mark Sylvester: Wow.

John Davies: Now the other thing is, they're sitting there and saying, "Would you like to do a letter?" "No." "Would you be willing to leave a message at the county to let them know how you feel?" "Well, yeah, I'd do that in a heartbeat." "Great. My phone has this ability just to patch you right in there. I just can connect you right now, so would you like to talk, like to leave a message now?" "Yeah." "Well, let me know. I want to be really clear, when I let go of you, I'm gone for good. I'm not coming back. I'm not on the phone with you, and it's going to ring, and all you have to do is say, 'This is so-and-so. I'm really, really excited about this project,' and give the one reason why you're for it, and give your name. You'll probably, if you leave your phone number, they probably will call you back, but if you don't, just say where you live and that you care."

John Davies: Now I've gotten letters, emails, phone calls, and the city call at city hall is getting bombarded on my side, so the little ask for help we do sometimes earlier. As people are going along, we'll do this really light ask. "Hey, checking in. How you feeling? Do you need more information?" "No, I'm solid. I love this." "Would you be willing just to share with the city hall, the city council?" "Sure." "Well, can we help you, letter, email?" This may be six months before, so the city starts getting the dribble. In some projects, we will do that for six months, getting a dribble of three or four letters in a day.

Mark Sylvester: The audience gets used to these asks as a part of that relationship.

John Davies: They're in, so once they-

Mark Sylvester: [crosstalk 00:13:58]-

John Davies: ... write the letter, they're totally in, so when you make a commitment, when you take the first step, you'll take the next step, and the next step, and the next step. I hear from clients all the time, "Oh, well, well, we don't want to burn them out. We only want to ask them once." It's like, no. You understand if we ask them, if we ask the entire group to do something five times, we'll get two, three times as many people to do the big thing when we need them. There are the people that show up at like the dinners to cultivate them. They're like, "Hey, listen. I can't go to a hearing. If you want me to go a dinner with you, I could show up to that."

Mark Sylvester: They'll tell you.

John Davies: Well, it's like-

Mark Sylvester: "You can buy me a steak."

John Davies: "You can buy me a nice dinner, but I'm not going to do anything for you." It's somehow, the database has that glitch where that person doesn't get involved anymore. I mean, we were constantly updating the database.

Mark Sylvester: Of course, you are.

John Davies: The other is, we're constantly saying, "Thank you."

Mark Sylvester: I was going to ask you, I had two questions. One that got my attention was like, if you said, "Please send this letter," and then city hall gets barraged with 10,000 carbon copy letters-

John Davies: We don't do carbon copy letters.

Mark Sylvester: No, exactly, because you already said it's, you customize all of that. You know I'm a software guy, and I'm always thinking about the user experience with software, and we have this thing we talk about called friction. How do I remove the friction? Every little impediment, and it feels like that's what you've done.

John Davies: Well, there's great programs to do it for emails, and the friction's gone. We use them, and there's a new one every couple months. Because we're not aiming, most of the time, at Congress, the big problem, big issue with most people doing efforts like this to Congress, is getting through their walls to fight spam. These letters become spam, but at cities, and counties, and regional, and state government it's not a problem, but what we look for is the ones that we keep pushing these companies to allow us to write 100, 200 versions of the email. It naturally rotates through them, and we're finally getting them.

John Davies: We finally have a couple programs that allow us to do that, so we can do the email that way, but the deal with it, it still is pretty jaded. It's so much better when we write, say, "Hey, I lived in Oak Lane two blocks from the development for 48 years."

Mark Sylvester: Sounds pretty high-touch.

John Davies: "And Doris and I used to walk on the property. We're so happy this is going to happen."

Mark Sylvester: You were talking about how we appreciate them, and it feels like that's that acknowledgement and that thank you. [inaudible 00:16:41] some examples of how you do that.

John Davies: Our deal in this is to turn supporters into advocates, and I always say, "And don't forget the flowers." You got to say, "Thank you," because you're going to reactivate them again. I mean, we live in this time that people don't respond, don't say, "Thank you." We've lost the politeness in our society. We don't hear pleases. We don't hear thank yous. People don't do what they say they're going to do as much, so when someone appreciates someone ... First thing is, everyone on the list gets a thank you. If you wrote a letter, sent an email, made a phone call, and we know it, we add. We add a special note to that, and we'll open the letter with ... If you showed up at the hearing, we acknowledge that and make sure, "Thank you for being there. Was that crazy? It was what happened that day when that 16-year-old boy stood up at the microphone. We don't know any idea where he came from. Was that amazing? Your remarks were so right on, and so we really appreciate you."

John Davies: That's one time. We try to appreciate them five or six different ways. In the old-school fundraising, the deal was, if, before you ask someone to give money again, you got to appreciate them seven ways. We can't do that. We just don't have it, but we do four or five. We'll send you a letter. We'll send you a note. We might make a phone call and leave a message on your phone saying, "Hey, don't want to bother you. Just want to say, 'Thank you.' No reason to call us back unless you have some news for us or something you want to do. We just want to say, man, that was so cool that you came. I so appreciate you."

John Davies: I mean, I have clients that are paying me lots of money that don't return emails for three days, and we have a promise. This is our promise, and we lay out a promise to our clients. What we're going to do, we're going to put their interest first. We're going to be on top of everything we need to be on top of. We will return their emails and their phone calls within a few hours. We're going to be transparent and honest, with truth always, and then at the end, it says, "And we expect the same from you." Why do we have to do that in a society? Because it's just natural for people just to blow things off and not appreciate it.

Mark Sylvester: It's common courtesy.

John Davies: We just don't have it anymore in our society.

Mark Sylvester: Well, it sounds-

John Davies: We moved on.

Mark Sylvester: ... like they do, if they work through this method. John-

John Davies: They do.

Mark Sylvester: ... this has been, I think it's kind of, let's go back and recap what, for our listener who may have come in at the middle, please go-

John Davies: Well, they-

Mark Sylvester: ... back and-

John Davies: ... got to go back to the start. They-

Mark Sylvester: Got to go back and start.

John Davies: We're not going to give them anything extra at this point. They either, they listen to the whole thing, you think you get to listen to the end and get it all. [crosstalk 00:19:34]-

Mark Sylvester: No, no, no, no. We started with this overview, which was really the psychology, the high-level strategy of acknowledging, contrasting, embracing, and bridge, and then-

John Davies: It's like you've been listening.

Mark Sylvester: I have been listening. Actually, you have no idea. This has been ... I feel like I've been sitting in a masterclass with you. Then to understand with the Aristotle episode, right, where you were talking about how this wasn't really new, but all along, you've been talking about, where were those pivot points where you're like, "Oh, man, this is the way we have to do it." You've been doing it, what, 35 years. You've got a 87% success rate on getting the hearing, the way, the outcomes that you're looking for. Then I loved the episode, the one it was Doing It Backwards. That was-

John Davies: It just, it's so funny, because do you ever watch a TV show called Nathan for You?

Mark Sylvester: I have not heard of that.

John Davies: Well, Nathan for You is absolutely hysterical. Nathan takes on these crazy, terrible, horrible projects. I watched one the other day that sending smoke detectors overseas, you have to pay this high tax, and so Nathan ... It's crazy. It's a comedy. Nathan looks at everything, crazy ways, and I just sit and watch that show going, "I do these things and look at [crosstalk 00:21:07]-"

Mark Sylvester: Because you identify with him.

John Davies: I totally put this [inaudible 00:21:10] going, "Oh, my gosh. Well, how does his brain work?" His deal was, the smoke detector is, if you send a musical instrument, you have to pay excise tax, so he says a smoke detector is a musical instrument, and he cuts a record, and he shows the people at customs that it's really a musical instrument, and he's sending those musical instruments. They cut a record, and then they got to get the record broadcast into a radio station to do it, so he does a protest and has a protest concert. I mean, it's just, he gives away free gas.

John Davies: Everything he does, it's sort of having a looser feel, and that's what I'd like to see is a looser feel, and doing something different means that I'm listening to the people I'm trying to, one, influence. What do they need? I mean, what do the people we're trying to influence need? If we listen to them and really listen to them and hear what they're saying, what they're saying is, "Give me some cover. I'm good with this," but listen. If the audience is full of negative people, I'm going to have to delay it, and delay it, and eventually I'm going to, I want to get reelected. What's the number one goal of every elected official? [crosstalk 00:22:20]-

Mark Sylvester: That episode, really, we went on a deep dive of what the motivation-

John Davies: Right-

Mark Sylvester: ... was.

John Davies: ... and so doing it backwards ends up losing support. Doing it the right way slows it down a little bit, but you build support, and then the whole idea is to acknowledge, contrast, and do it in that order. Those are the first two most important. The other two, everyone does really well.

Mark Sylvester: I would posit that you might want to go back, even if you already heard it, go and listen to it again, because the shows aren't that long. You can listen to them in a couple of hours. Then what we did, we followed up with the five steps, and this is where we got real tactical. Right? These-

John Davies: [crosstalk 00:23:02]-

Mark Sylvester: ... very specific things.

John Davies: A very strategic approach with really serious tactics on it. First is, is listening and using our method of research where you go and you ask very broad questions, and you listen to people, let them give you the feel, the focused interviews. I mean, anyone can do it. You don't have to get a database. You don't have to hire a research firm. You can just go listen to people, and isn't that crazy?

Mark Sylvester: Then we talked about dreams and fears. I love that episode. That-

John Davies: The idea-

Mark Sylvester: ... was great.

John Davies: ... is, we've got to address their dreams and fears, and when we're creating the message and the materials, and think about how much the visual is part of the message. We're really careful on the visual is a message, so we're addressing their dreams and fears. Let's say we say the right words, but we put up something that makes them afraid of what's going to happen.

Mark Sylvester: I remember-

John Davies: [crosstalk 00:23:59]-

Mark Sylvester: ... you gave us some great examples of how it is just about selecting the images, and I've sat in your office and looked at, you'll go through so many of them, and they all, "John, these look great." "No, no. See that? See that? See that?" That was a good episode to go back and listen to.

John Davies: Interesting, most places we want to show people. People are great. Magazine covers with people, one single person, or a couple, not many more, on the cover sell more on the magazine stand. The magazine they send to your house, the same magazine, the magazine sent to your house may have a scene, may have something else, but when they sell it on the newsstand, they change it and put a person on the cover, because that's what people look for-

Mark Sylvester: This is-

John Davies: ... in a newsstand.

Mark Sylvester: ... breaking news, John.

John Davies: Yeah, so go walk by a newsstand in the airport or someplace else, and look at the magazines. They're all pretty faces looking at you.

Mark Sylvester: Maybe look at one that you subscribe to and see if you match the-

John Davies: [crosstalk 00:24:51]

Mark Sylvester: ... cover up.

John Davies: Yeah, so the deal is, the graphic matters. That's part of the dream. Then we got to get the message out. We talked about how to get it out. [crosstalk 00:25:00]-

Mark Sylvester: That was a good episode, right?

John Davies: It was-

Mark Sylvester: Because-

John Davies: It was very fun.

Mark Sylvester: Well, we assume it's digital.

John Davies: Right.

Mark Sylvester: Right? Because we live that way, but-

John Davies: But the problem with digital and social in our societies is when they like you, and they support you, they're not going to do anything for you, because that's not the world. The digital world helps us prove perception-wise that we're in the game, and that we have more people on our side than the other side, but they're not going to do anything. I mean, you're fighting a project, and you got 1,000 people in your Facebook page, and you get 25, 50 to show up fighting us.

Mark Sylvester: Not doing so good.

John Davies: But that's what they get, and that's fine, because that's what's happening. That's all they need, but we have the same number. We'll get half as many to show up, and we need a lot more, and we need to be educated and motivated. Getting someone in today's conversations to do something that they will be attacked for or countered for, they've got to be pretty motivated, and they got to be, they got to feel confident in the facts, so digital, social alone doesn't work. It's a tool. It's one of four tools that you've got to be able to do, but getting out and talking to people in other ways.

Mark Sylvester: Then we had that great episode about building relationships.

John Davies: Yeah, so cultivate a relationship. How fun is that? I think that a lot of builders, a lot of developers are good at doing that in smaller numbers, so what we do is, we take their natural ability. Usually, you're in this business, you probably have pretty good people skills. We take that ability, and we multiply it hugely, so we get it to a bigger number, the relationships, by applying more of a method and getting people in the same room, getting notes and letters from you, so they have that relationship. Once you're cultivated, you can ask them to do something, and you can ask them over and over, and that's what we just talked about.

Mark Sylvester: Which we talked about earlier on this show.

John Davies: Yeah.

Mark Sylvester: John, I love how we've been able to take this method and deconstruct it with a lot of practical examples, real-world examples of things that you've sat through, but I feel like our listener might want more. Right? It's like, okay, this is great, but, I mean, obviously, they could call and work with you, but I understand you're thinking about doing some intensive workshops for people in real estate.

John Davies: I am. What happens is, I'll speak at these national conferences and regional builders' conferences, and what I find, there's people that like, "Wow. We have a whole team that we've hired in house that we want to do this, but we really don't know how to do it, and so we don't want to hire you to do it. We have them." I'm like, well, first off, from a business point of view, stupid for me not to do something, but all of a sudden, the flash of the obvious hit me. Why don't I do, why don't I teach them, share with them, and do it over a couple years to be able to do it? Because people keep saying, "Could you come? Have you written your book? Where can I get your book? Can you give me a workbook? Can you give me a step-by-step?" It's like, "Well, sure I can, but sort of-"

Mark Sylvester: A little busy.

John Davies: " ... my kids need to go to college, and my wife likes to buy new things," so from the point of view of doing this at a very small, single-digit percentage of what it would cost to do the program with us is, I can take some people that qualify, and the qualification will be based on a mindset. The mindset will be a simple little questionnaire. "Do you have the right mindset to win and the mindset to approach this," so that when you get into the room with 15, 20 other people, you're likely to be people that are thinking about positives, so not only am I going to bring my team in and now I'm going to bring in some outside experts, the people sitting at the tables working with you are also going to have this mindset of really getting deep.

John Davies: Our thought is, twice a year get together for a day and a half, two days, really dive deep, really walk away with actionable things to do, have some really good examples, and also have time together, both having meals, practicing what we preach, and having time to be able to really get into this. Walk away after two days, and your world's going to be rocked.

Mark Sylvester: What do you call this?

John Davies: Well, first off, The Davies Method Master Series Real Estate. I'm sure we'll come up with something more creative, and we're ... I mean, I know exactly how to do the first four. I have two years locked up, and my biggest problem is, I'm probably going to have to cut stuff, and so really getting fired up. We've worked on some worksheets that take you from the beginning of a thought to a 25-word message that will help you win, and by giving you the steps to go through to do it that seem so small and so simple, and then when you get to the end, and then we'll spend, that's going to be one of our biggest parts of the first two days, but also giving you five examples how we've done it so you can start playing off it.

Mark Sylvester: We've not been able to get into that much detail. We've done really well with this show, but that will allow us to go a lot deeper. What I think we'll do is, if it's okay with you, I'd like to have you back when we're closer to launching the master series, and let's talk specifically about that. Again, we'll do a bonus episode for our listener.

John Davies: Can we call it bonus, and not 13?

Mark Sylvester: Yeah, we couldn't have an episode 13.

John Davies: No. Okay, great.

Mark Sylvester: No, we'll-

John Davies: [crosstalk 00:30:43]-

Mark Sylvester: ... just call it the bonus.

John Davies: Feel so much better about that.

Mark Sylvester: I know. John, thank you so much.

John Davies: Hey, this-

Mark Sylvester: I appreciate it.

John Davies: ... was fun.

Mark Sylvester: Yeah.

John Davies: I really enjoyed this, and hey, if you listen to this and you do have some questions and you do have some things, jdavies@daviespublicaffairs, don't forget the S, dot com, and let's get in the game.

Mark Sylvester: Perfect. Thanks, John. Thank you for listening. It's now your opportunity and responsibility to use the method today. You've completed one segment toward understanding the Davies Method. We look forward to you subscribing. Join us as we uncover and explain the nuances of John's distinctive approach. For more episodes, visit thedaviesmethod.com. I'm Mark Sylvester recording at the Pullstring Press studios in Santa Barbara, California.