Mark Sylvester: John Davies has a method, an approach he systematically developed over a career spanning three decades. He's proven it to be invaluable for dozens of industries and thousands of projects facing public acceptance. Up until now, the method has only been available to his select client list. John is unpacking his insight and wealth of knowledge to overcome opposition and earn public support for the first time right here. Throughout these episodes, we'll take a deep dive step by step, with John, into his strategies to overcome opposition and create support. Nothing is free in this world, but good ideas are priceless. This show could be just the thing you've been looking for. I'm Mark Sylvester. Now, let's get started and talk with John.

Mark Sylvester: Welcome back to the show. John, last week, we talked about acknowledge, and this week we're going to talk about contrast. You made the point that we want those two closely joined that you don't want a lot of air in between them. Explain contrast first and then explain why they need to be so closely coupled.

John Davies: Well contrast. So, we think about contrast as a ... When you're looking at two things and you're judging between the two of them, it's easier to make a decision, right?

Mark Sylvester: Of course.

John Davies: And so, when you look at just one thing, it's hard to judge it. So, contrast is looking at something in opposition or in comparison. Give me an example in real estate where contrast helps.

Mark Sylvester: Well the deals we have, we're going to put 10,000 traffic trips, average daily trips, on the street.

John Davies: Okay, that's a fact.

Mark Sylvester: That's a fact. The contrast is this project is zoned today, called for in the County General Plan for two million square feet of big box and office instead of 2,100 homes. This project reduces peak-hour trips by 35% and reduces average daily trips by 10%. So yes, we're going to put a lot of cars in the street, but because we've made a change, if we're asking for a change, we're going to put a lot less on. And then we go to the next one, which is embrace.

John Davies: I'm going to just go back and unpack, make sure I got that right. Had you done the ... In this example, the big box, it would have been an order of magnitude more trips?

Mark Sylvester: Right.

John Davies: And so, you would actually show that?

Mark Sylvester: Exactly and say that?

John Davies: Right. So compared to what is what we're doing.

Mark Sylvester: It's always compared to what, right.

John Davies: So when you acknowledge compared to what. And so, if I was to ask you right now to pick up a chair in your room, pick up the chair.

Mark Sylvester: Okay, it's up. I'm now holding the chair up.

John Davies: Let's say you hold it up.

Mark Sylvester: I'm holding it up.

John Davies: Okay. And just like yeah, that's pretty heavy. That's all right. But okay, so right before I ask you to pick up the chair, I ask you ... So you're picking up a kitchen chair. You pick it up, and you're like, "Yeah, I can pick that up with one hand. I move those around all the time." Well now go into the living room, pick up that big, big, easy, soft chair that you sit in all weekend. You pick that up and you lift that up, and it takes two hands and you hold it up. It's heavy.

Mark Sylvester: So it's compared to what.

John Davies: Now go in and pick up the kitchen chair. Now that feels a lot lighter. So it's anything. Walk out of the movies.

Mark Sylvester: Okay.

John Davies: In the middle of the afternoon, it seems-

Mark Sylvester: I'm going to poke you on this.

John Davies: No poking.

Mark Sylvester: So we acknowledge. So when I'm doing a contrasting statement, do I start with the largest case, the worst case and then show the best case?

John Davies: Yeah.

Mark Sylvester: Okay, okay. I'm going to show that contrast when I'm saying the original plan. So it was going to be X, and now, by contract.

John Davies: Right. So this project is going to cost ... Add 10,000 traffic trips to the streets. By the way, that's the average daily trip, so it's going to add X number and peak hours. And so, the current zoning, the current general plan calls for this, which would add 12,000-13,000 traffic trips a day. And worse, it's going to be this many AM peak-hour trips and this PM peak-hour trips. This project can basically go forward by right. This is what's been zoned. There's no ... No one needs any amendments. No one needs anything special. You got to get it approved but design-wise. But if that's not approved, you have a major lawsuit against the jurisdiction.

John Davies: We want to make this change, because first off, we think homes are needed more than another big box center or another office center, and it results in less impacts.

Mark Sylvester: So first off, we're going to acknowledge, and we know we don't spend a lot of time in there, and we need to contrast everything that we've acknowledged. But do we evaluate everything in the project by comparison? I mean, is that part of the due diligence in getting prepared?

John Davies: No.

Mark Sylvester: You don't have to?

John Davies: You don't have to. So, if you're looking a project where that's the game, which, sometimes, it is, then-

Mark Sylvester: What do you mean a game?

John Davies: We're looking at, "Can we win? Can we earn approval of this?" If we do earn approval and it goes to the voters, which is, you know, a lot of big master plans end up somewhere like that.

Mark Sylvester: Right.

John Davies: Can we win? Can we win if we go to the voters, if we have to? If you can win straight up, then you can win straight up. Acknowledge, contrast, embrace all the good things and move on.

Mark Sylvester: I know that you have ... and our listener knows because we talk about persuasion and the amount of reading that you've done to formulate these opinions. How does contrast work in terms of psychology and persuasion? Why does that work so well?

John Davies: It's just how we make up our mind. We make up our minds. We can't make up our mind in a vacuum. We need something to compare it to, something to play off as the opposition to it.

Mark Sylvester: A foil?

John Davies: Exactly. I mean, here's the worst case. I mean, would we elect anyone if it was just yes or no? Right? I mean, if we have people running for public office and we get to vote yes or no, I think the majority of us probably vote no. It's a choice between two people. I'm a lifelong Democrat. I can't vote for a Republican, so I got to vote for the Democrat even though I don't like them much, so I got a choice there, right? This is my value. Or I like that person more than that person because they believe in this, but I don't really like them. And so, the idea, our entire political system is based on the contrast.

Mark Sylvester: So in fact that evaluating everything by the contrast is such a critical ... It's the second step. It's not the first step. It's the second.

John Davies: Right.

Mark Sylvester: And as a part of preparing, do you go through everything, every piece of data and then to say ... just from a sense completeness, and then say, "These are really the three that are going to make the difference"?

John Davies: Yes. I'm in the first meeting asking questions that no one's asked in a long time.

Mark Sylvester: Give me an example.

John Davies: So, like, what was this plan for originally 25 years ago? We've done a bunch of BRAC, you know, base redos, redos of-

Mark Sylvester: BRAC? Sorry. Buzzword bingo here. What's BRAC?

John Davies: It's the military reuse of their bases. So what are we going to do? We have these bases all over the country and we're going to ... They have thousands of jobs. You know, 3,000-4,000 jobs on the base. It really hurts a community when these go away. And then they stop talking about the three or 4,000 jobs that were there or people were there and the impact. So, we're going to build this, and we never go back in contrast. Go, "Whoa, whoa, whoa. How many people were here when it was full-operating pace? Oh that many. Oh. How many lived in the community? Oh that much." We had like 2,500 people living here in these old, horrible units that have been knocked down already.

John Davies: So, this isn't like new. We're going to build half as much of what was here at one point. You got to keep digging back and asking questions that other people haven't asked.

Mark Sylvester: The idea of digging back is really interesting because community memory is pretty short-lived.

John Davies: Especially today.

Mark Sylvester: Why today?

John Davies: Well it's just we're overwhelmed with information. We're onto the next crisis. I mean, we have a new cycle, and then we're off to the new cycle. I mean, it's pretty sad how fast we move off the crisis of the day.

Mark Sylvester: Are we talking about nine hours?

John Davies: I don't know. I mean, that's pretty short, but I think for some people it could be less than that.

Mark Sylvester: It's not nine days.

John Davies: No, no, no. It's a 24-hour, 48-hour ... It's until the next thing comes. And so, you got to contrast it.

Mark Sylvester: So knowing that that's the landscape you're walking into, how do you get people to pay attention long enough to make a decision? And specifically in real estate?

John Davies: What we're looking for is we're looking to get champions. We're getting people. We want to get them to understand what we're doing. We want to motivate them that this is a good thing. And so, once you're motivated, now, I want to educate you. Part of the education is the acknowledge and the contrast and the next two steps. What happens is I, now, have you motivated. It means that I've ... It's compelling to you for some personal reason.

Mark Sylvester: Right.

John Davies: And now, I educate you once you decide it's compelling to you. Then I get you educated, and now, you're going to go out and repeat this for me. It's so much better that we have people doing that for us than we're doing it just ourselves.

Mark Sylvester: Well because this is all about leverage.

John Davies: Exactly.

Mark Sylvester: When you're looking at all of the ... We have this master list of all the things we have to acknowledge and we pick a few. And then, we have all the things that we're going to contrast. What is it do you think that makes the most compelling contrast? Is there a metric or a rubric that you test it against?

John Davies: No. I think there's a danger in it that if you make the contrast too drastic, it becomes unbelievable in the world we live in today.

Mark Sylvester: Oh.

John Davies: So you got to be really, really careful. The worst contrast of being drastic is when you're talking big-dollar numbers. We find that people just roll their eyes. So let's talk about, you know, in Southern California, we've done a lot of work. It's water is an issue. You've got to acknowledge we're going to use water. By the way, we're going to use half the water just on a natural ... that the homes people live in today because our homes are more sustainable. Our homes use less water. They're set up to be better. Oh, by the way, we're going to do a purple line. Purple line meaning we're going to use recycled water, so gray water, just through our community, and we're going to use that for all the landscaping.

John Davies: At the end of the day, our community is going to use about 20% of the water that the existing community uses. That's a pretty good contrast.

Mark Sylvester: That's a great contrast and that's believable.

John Davies: It is believable. It's true and most people never talk about it.

Mark Sylvester: It's interesting, especially when we're so concerned about carbon footprints and water and all of those other aspects. I would think those would be big talking points.

John Davies: Right. I'm working on two projects right now that have proven away to be carbon neutral.

Mark Sylvester: How big are they?

John Davies: One is 3,800 homes; one's 2,200 homes.

Mark Sylvester: So that's a lot. I was just reading in this month's National Geographic about how Dubai has said they want to be completely carbon neutral.

John Davies: How ironic, right?

Mark Sylvester: Well no, exactly, right? And that's the point is it's ... These are the new things that the current environment is making us think about. John what's the thing that someone could do today though to start thinking about contrast? Because I know the Davies method is, we're upsetting how they think about stuff.

John Davies: Right.

Mark Sylvester: We're changing how they go at it. Last week, we had them do cons and pros. What would you have them do this week in terms of contrasting?

John Davies: Well so, now, we're on the pros. So what are our greatest pros? Start with the pros. Things that are really exciting. And now, a lot of them are things you have to do today, because it's just in the new codes.

Mark Sylvester: Like?

John Davies: Well trying to be as close to carbon neutral as possible to lower your carbon footprint. Reducing water. Coming up with programs to reduce traffic — traffic management plans. So they deal all these things that you go, "Oh my gosh. The community, the city, the county makes me do all this stuff." Well those are benefits. Those are pros. Write them down. And say, "Okay. So how does that compare to how things were done yesterday, 10 years ago, in the community? What could have been done here? What might be done here with the zoning? How could we do this better?"

Mark Sylvester: It just dawned on me that the person or the people that were trying to overcome opposition is, this is just to get us to permitting, right? To get us to get this thing built.

John Davies: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Right.

Mark Sylvester: Is it fair to say that we can go back to a lot of this work and use it in the sales process, now we want to go sell homes to these families that care about those things?

John Davies: Of course. Yeah, I look at a lot of projects we've worked at, and they're using a lot of the ideas that we've forced them to think about, as they're doing it. I would say that as a rule, companies are really good at marketing. Their homes to sell.

Mark Sylvester: But they're not so good at marketing.

John Davies: It's a different method. No one cares about the marble in the bathroom or the hardwood floors or the special new features in the kitchen. That's not going to help you get a project approved. So you have to think, "Well how does that impact me? What does it mean to me?" So here's this piece of property. We're going to leave 500 acres of this beautiful trails and open space. It's not available today. I mean, that doesn't help you sell a project, to sell a home in a project. That helps you sell it to the community, that they get to 500 acres even though they don't live there.

Mark Sylvester: So there is some reuse of that work?

John Davies: There is. It's a thinking process.

Mark Sylvester: Right, exactly. I love that. So what we would have them do is we talked about the ponds last week. This week is, make a list of all of the pros and actually go and look at some of those things, as you said, that you're being forced to do and turn that into a pro.

John Davies: Right. Then, now, all of a sudden, this contrast with what's happening. So I have this email that I like to share with people about contrast. It's one of my favorite ways to do it. And so, the email is written to Reverend and Victoria Lewis. The subject is Christmas. It's, "Dear Mom and Dad, sure hope you're well. I miss you. Sadly, I won't be coming home for Christmas. I'm leaving for Nepal tomorrow. The thing is I'm pregnant and my boyfriend is from Nepal. We're going to meet his parents. They live close to the Himalaya mountains. Your often-taught tolerance and love for others will mean you'll accept him as a Buddhist and me as a convert. Love you both, Jenny."

Mark Sylvester: Oh my gosh.

John Davies: I know. So I have college-age kids, so I mean, I could panic if I got that letter. But you looked down then, after the panel, the first panel on your phone or your computer, and it says, "P.S. I'm not pregnant. I don't have a boyfriend nor am I converting or moving Nepal, but I did not do very well in my first semester of college. I failed calculus and world history and got Cs in the other classes, and I wanted you to see those grades with a better perspective." So, sort of makes the point that, yeah, you could do a lot worse. You could have a lot more problems. It creates a contrast. So one challenge with Jenny though is she couldn't do that again. She can't write that letter.

Mark Sylvester: She [crosstalk 00:17:33] that once.

John Davies: They can't write that letter her sophomore year.

Mark Sylvester: John, thank you so much for taking us through contrast and helping us understand that. Next week, we're going to talk about the third step, which is embrace and engage. I'm looking forward to that conversation.

Mark Sylvester: Thank you for listening. It's now your opportunity and responsibility to use the method. Today, you've completed one segment toward understanding the Davies method. We look forward to you subscribing. Join us, as we uncover and explain the nuances of John's distinctive approach. For more episodes, visit thedaviesmethod.com. I'm Mark Sylvester reporting at the Pullstring Press studios, in Santa Barbara, California.